Deluge of Atlantis

Deluge of Atlantis
Deluge of Atlantis

Monday, May 20, 2013

Guest Blogger Jayasree-Is Vedic Astrology Derived from Greece? Part 3

Continuing an eight-part debate
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/2013/05/is-vedic-astrology-derived-from-greek_7986.html

Non-random-Thoughts
This blog aims at bringing out the past glory of India, Hinduism and its forgotten values and wisdom. This is not copyrighted so as to reach genuine seekers of these information. Its my prayer that only genuine seekers - and not vandals & plagiarists - come to this site.
 

Is Vedic astrology derived from Greek astrology -part 3

Saturday, May 4, 2013 

Continued from the previous post - part 2:

- The well established system of the astrology discussed in Part -2 continues even today – after 1800 years without any change in the way we use. This system could not have come into being all of a sudden. It must have been there at least some centuries before that. That takes us to the Sangam Age. In the Sangam Age songs, the name of Aries is mentioned in its local Tamil name – Aadu!

  Before going into the details of these – totally five evidences in all – supported by cross references, let me tell the outside world that Yavanas were indeed visiting India, including Tamilnadu which can be shown from the old Sangam Tamil references and the latter texts that were written after 5th century AD – but their contribution to the Indian society was something else and not astrology. If someone still believes that Greek influence brought rashi or astrology concept to India, let me show this picture of a wine cup unearthed in France and dated at 500 BC and supposedly to be belonging to the Celtic culture. The protruding tongue and the tilak on the forehead and the facial expression itself is that of KaLi– the deity one can find in India only.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave


How did this figure go to France? If it is said that the Celts worshiped KALi, then agree that Celtic culture was an extension of Vedic culture and that whatever survived after eliminating them was taken over by the Greeks and Romans as their own products. [It is perhaps significant that the Celtic Irish had a goddess much like Kali and she was called by a similar name-Calliach, which is pronounced about like 'Kali'-DD]  One can claim that Vedic astrology is one such product that was taken over by them and so it is wrong to claim that Vedic seers borrowed this from them. I can even show EVIDENCE that Celtic and Druid culture came from the Danavas like Kalakanjas and Druhyu, the son of Yayati. With reference to the above shown wine cup, I can show literary evidence from sangam texts that Yavanas served wine made in Yavana country and served it to the Pandyan king in the wine cups to Tamil kings. There is a verse in Pura nanuru – 56 that says this. There is every chance to say that the Yavanas who served the wine in their wine cup added some "Indian-ness" to these products and marketed them better to these kings. The Vix Grave wine cup was perhaps one of such cups which became popular with the people in the Gaul society also. That is how we reason out.
 But if someone says that the Kali figure (of the wine cup) was first innovated by the Yavanas and later borrowed by the Indians on the argument that there is no Kali figure found in India that can be dated before this Vix Grave Kali- in the handle wine cup, there can be nothing more absurd than that.
[Note by Dale D. The face is a typical Gorgon face from Classical Greece and as such something very well known in both Greek and Roman society. Jayasree interprests the face as being that of Kali. This puts the story of Perseus and Medusa into a new light. Now it has been suspected for a long time (and rejected bu Scholars for a long time) that the name "Perseus" means "The Persian" but even this Perseus is shown dressed in Persian style wearing what looks like pyjamas and curly-toed boots and wearing a Phrygian cap. He is said to have taken the head of Medusa-this gorgon mask -by murdering the goddess because it was death for her to look upon anyone. By stealing the head of the Goddess he intended to control her powers of dealing death by showing the head only to people he wanted to die. He took the head to Joppa and used it to kill the Sea Dragon Cetus ("Whale", but usually shown as looking like a typical dragon) and to rescue princess Andromeda for his wife. Andromeda means "The one that men like to think about" and Kali in Greek means "Good-Looking", similar to the English Comely. It seems the true meaning is that this Persian fellow came back from a trip into India with an icon of Kali and used it to magically curse his enemies to death-so he said-and a story was added that he had killed the Goddess and took her head (The face mask was then given over to the Greek Goddess Athena and became one of her symbols, she was supposed to wear it as a badge on her goatskin over-robe) ALL of these mythological figures are constellations; the story figures heavily in Greek Astronomy and together they cover a fair section of the sky, from near the North Pole to the constellation Cetus, which lies below the ecliptic and the band of the constellations of the zodiac;

 
-So we have the distinct possibility that the story and the constellations
Were imported from India, and the Cetus in this case would then be a Makara
Or even actually a Saltwater Crocodile, which would make more sense.]


The present controversy on rashi is similar to this. There is another verse from another Sangam text called Nedunal vaadai which tells about the beautifully decorated lamps made by the Yavanas in the Palace of the Pandyan king. What makes this interesting is that in the same song of Nedunal vaadai, we find the description of a painting on the roof of the cot of the Pandyan Queen which depicted the Zodiac with "aadu" (Mesha) at its beginning!! After seeing the Kali handle in the wine cup and the reference in Sangam text to yavanas as having served their wine in their wine cup, I can claim that the yavanas copied this idea (of the zodiac with Mesha as its head) too and imported it to their country where it was further developed. The visit of Yavanas to India had been more and frequent than the other way round which makes it possible for the Yavanas to have imbibed the Indian Thoughts than to have implanted their views on Indians.

The Yavanas who came to Tamil nadu did not come so, after Alexander (read this) and ( this) but had been frequenting Tamil lands for many reasons. A complete look at all the instances given in the Tamil texts from the sangam age onwards might give an idea of the kind of contribution to India by Yavanas. I am reproducing the article on the compilation of all contexts where Yavanas are mentioned in the Tamil texts, written by Dr R. Nagasamy From http://tamilartsacademy.com/books/roman%20karur/chapter15.html Romans (Yavanas)

 In Tamilnad Dr R. Nagasamy Tamil Roman Contact The Tamil literary evidence regarding Indo Roman contact is of great value to the present study. It is proposed to take the Pattupattu and Ettu tokai anthologies and the twin epics Silappadhikaram and Manimekhalai and the later epics Cintamani and Perumkatai for this study. It is seen that there are six references in Sangam anthologies to Yavanas, three in the Ettuttokai collections and there in Pattu Pattu collections. Interestingly each reference gives one aspect of Yavana contact, and when all of them are put together collectively, indicate Indo Roman contact. Aham 149, mentions the ships of Yavanas, frequenting the port of Mustri on the banks of Periyaru, coming laden with gold and returning with pepper. It is not known whether the Yavanas - the Romans brought lumps of gold. In all likelihood not. On the contrary it is the Roman coins they brought for its bullion value. This passage then seems to confirm that Roman coins at the beginning were brought to the south, mainly for their metal value and not as currency.
The second referencce comes from Puram poem 56. The ruler, in this case the Pandya Nan Maran, is praised for drinking wine daily in a gold cup, filled by beautiful damsels. The delicious wine was supplied by the Yavanas in well made jars. This stanza shows that the Romans brought good wines in well made jars, obviously a reference to amphora jars found in large numbers in archaeological excavations in Tamil Nad. It also shows that the Tamil Kings rated the Roman wines very high, to be celebrated in poems and that they were drinking Roman wines daily, poured by good looking damsels.
The third reference is to Roman lamps- Nedunalvadai, lines 101-2, mentions beautiful figures, holding lamps in their hands, made by the Yavanas which were used as lights for illumination by the pandyan ruler. The occurrence of Roman terracotta and bronze lamps in different archaeological context in South India confirms this literary reference. Another Sangam poem also confirms the great appreciation of the Tamils for the Roman lamps(1). The Romans are said to light and place their lamps in the shape of a black swan on the Yupa sthambhas, planted in places where the learned Brahmins performed Vedic sacrifices(2). The 'black - swan' seems to refer to bronze lamps in the shape of a swan.
The other reference to Yavanas(3) relates to their dress and their services as body guards of the king. They had by nature very sturdy bodies, which they covered with shields, giving a fearful appearance. They also carried a whip, to drive their horses, which they covered with their lower garments. The Romans as body guards had a terrifying look.
The last of the reference, relates to the capture of Romans by Nedum Cheral Adan(4). He caught them, tied their hands behind, and poured molten ghee [melted butter] over their heads and captured their costly vessels with precious diamonds. The reason for inflicting such a treatment is not given. Probably they transgressed the law of the land in some ways and received the punishment.
This would show, the Romans were also punished by the rulers. The stanza seems to indicate that the Romans, used barbaric language and were quarrelsome. The last sentence may indicate ships with diamonds. Probably they did not pay duties levied on such commodities.
The Yavanas so mentioned, were in all probability Romans and these literary references are authenticated by archaeological finds like, amphora wine jars, Roman lamps, Roman gold and silver coins, and classical references to their trade in precious gems. Convesely, these poems were obviously composed only after the advent of the Roman trade.
The Tamil epic Silappadhikaram has the following to say on the Yavanas: There was a colony of Yavanas, called Yavanar Irukkai in Kaveripumpattinam in Tanjore district (the ancient Kaberis Emporium of Ptolemy)(5). It was very close to the mount of the river Kaveri. Their colony immediately arrested the sight of passersby. The Yavanas are said to be western people(6). The Yavanas, weilding powerful destructive weapons. The Chera Senkuttuvan ruled over the Yavana country, Himalayas and the southern Kumari(7). The allusion is that he was the master of western, northern and the southern quarters. The term Yavanar Valanadu [Roman Empire] is employed in the sense of overseas western countries, a figurative way of expressing his prowess. The Manimekhalai, refers to Yavana artists(8). The palace of the Chola ruler Mavan Killi who conquered Vanci Karur, had an ornamental pavilion constructed by artisans from different regions like Magada, Avanti, Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu. Along with them the Yavana sculptors were also employed. Magada artists were experts in gem setting Blacksmiths came from Avanti but the artisans from Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu were simply called expert artists - Kammars and Vinaijnar; their field of expertise is not mentioned. But among the artisans, the Yavanas are specifically mentioned as sculptors Yavana taccar. The 'Jivaka Cintamani' is a Tamil epic, authored by Thiruttakkadevar(9). Assigned to the 9th cent a.d. it is a Jain work that gives the story of Jivaka and is a work of Pan-Indian character. It has many references to the Yavanas. A fort was fitted with several mechanical contrivances to hurl weapons on invading enemies. They were also capable of pumping red hot molten metal on the enemies. The gadgets [clearly catapaults], equal to modern cannons, were made of [contained fittings of] iron in the shape of boars, snakes, wheels and monkeys and were manned by the Yavanas - Romans(10). A Roman casket - Yavanappelai is alluded to, containing gold, sparkling gems, pearls, diamonds and corals with which attractive jewellery were made. The casket had an ingenious lid, closed and locked with a spike also made of gold(11). A gift of two thousand Roman caskets, containing gold and precious gems is mentioned. In this istance also the casket is called Yavanappelai(12). The women kept their lovely and valued silken garments in Roman boxes set with precious gems mani iyal yavana-c-ceppu(13). A betel leaf box, made of cut crystal with its mouth encased in gold and set with pearls, was made by the skilful Roman artisans. 'Palingu polintu aruhu pon patitta pattiyil Terinda pon adaippai'(14) These are indicative of the preference the high society men and women had for Roman boxes and caskets, which were mainly used for storing precious jewellery, gems and gold. In most cases these are said to be made of crystals. The Perum Katai(15) is another great epic in Tamil which has survived only in parts. According to scholars, it is a Tamil version of Brhad Katha written in Paisaci language by Gunadhya(16). The Ganga king Durvinita wrote it in Sanskrit(17), and the present Tamil work is said to be based on the Sanskrit text(18). The author of this work, was one Kongu Vel, and the text is essentially a Jaina work. It also reflects Pan Indian traits. There are several references to the work of Yavanas, which were owned as objects of royal status. In most cases, the Yavanas are describbed as great sculptors, who made artistic products like jewel boxes, lamps in the shape of women etc. Luxurious jewel boxes, made by the Yavanas containing gold, and jewellery, were brought by beautiful girls and presented to Padmavati(19). A colossal sculpture of a bhuta, made by a Yavana scculptor, had in it built-in gadgets, with which is could capture trespassers(20). Udayana's attendants in the story, brought him, treasures in containers called Aryacceppu, a Roman casket called Yavana mancika and a golden receptacle(21). Luxurious treasures were stored in them. Vasavadatta another character in the story, had a cot of coral set with precious gems, worked by the Yavana artisans(22). An interesting reference calls the Yavana artists as Yavana aryas. They made an exquisite chariot for Vasavadata's mother, which she brought as dowry(23). The yavana artist, in thsi case, are referred to as greatly skilled workers. The chariot had a lotus like seat made of gold, set with precious gems, crystlas, corals and pearls. It was an invaluable vehicle of unparalleled workmanship. That the Yavanas were employed in designing and building Chariots especially, overlaid with gold and set with gems and crystals is frequently alluded to(24). A specially designed Chariot was made for Vasavadatta, with materials brought from different regions(25). The following materials obtained from different regions dserve notice-sandal wood from Podiyil mountain, ivory from Karnatana forests (Mysore region), gold from the Meru mountain, coral from the western ocean, Pearls from the southern ocean, silver from the Vindhya hills, copper from Sri Lanka (Jaffna), diamonds from the Himalayas, and iron from Kadara (Malaysia - Sumatran regions). Artists from different regions of India, were working on the charriot. Each was prroficient in a particular type of work. The first to be mentioned in the list were the Yavana sculptors. With them were working blacksmiths from Avanti, gem setters from Magadha, Goldsmiths from Pataliputra, the drawing artists from Kosala, and painters from Vatsa country. The king Pradyotana, gifted to Udayana twenty five chariots constructed by the Yavanas(26). There were very rich colonies of Yavanas called Yavancceri at Rajagiri(27). The same colonies at another instance are called Yavanappadi(28). Horses presented by the Yavana king ruling overseas country were considered great possessions(29). Indians, both men and women, learned Yavana language. Udayana and the Princess of the Kosala country, communicated with each other through the language of the Yavanas, [Latin!]which others could not understand (30).
  The 'Avantisundari Katha', is a Sanskrit text, written by the famous poet Dandin, who lived in the beginning of 7- 8th cent. a.d.[References past 350-400 a.d. refer to the Eastern Roman Empire, Byzantium] He refers to a great sculptor-architect named lalithalaya in the court of the Pallava of Kanchi. Giving his accomplishments, Dandin says, that Lalithalaya excelled even the Yavanas in the art of buildings and sculptures. Thus both the Tamil and Sanskrit texts from Tamil Nad, speak highly of Yavanas as sculptors and skilled artists, constructing attractive royal chariots and buildings making precious jewel boxes mostly made of gold and gems and charming lamps held by women and also bringing gold from overseas. They were also known for their fearful countenance, violent speeches, and dreadful weapons and were employed by the Tamil kings to guard their forts. They also brought wine in jars which were in demand among the royalty. It may be mentioned here that among the gold coins found as treasure trove at Vellalur 23 unstruck gold pieces were also found. Obviously they were brought for their metal value. Though no gold coin of the local rulers have been unearthed so far, it is not unlikely that these were brought by the Romans to mint local coins. The recently found inscribed Chera coins suggest they were modelled and minted by the Roman artists. That Roman lamps were actually used in Tamil Nad, is attested by the find of a Roman lamp at Arikkamedu.

Notes. 1. Perumbanarruppadi, in the Pattu Pattu, Ed. Dr. U.V.S. Swaminatha Iyer, Madras 7th reprint, 1974, lines 315-317. 2. Perumbanarruppadai, Ed. Dr. U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, Madras, line, 315-317-commentary p.240. 3. Mullaippattu, Ibid., lines 59-63. 4. Patitru Pattu, Patikam, 2. 5. Nilakanta Sastri, K.A., Foreign Notices of South India, Madras. 6. Silappadhikaram, ibid., p.131. 7. ibid., p.576. 8. Manimekhalai, Ed. Dr.U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, 7th Edition, Madras 1965, p.212. 9. Jivakacintamani, Ed. Dr.U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, Madras. 10. Ibid. verse - 104. 11. Ibid. verse - 114. 12. Ibid. verse - 537. 13. Ibid. verse - 1146. 14. Ibid. verse - 1475. 15. Perumkathai by Kongu Velir, Ed. Dr.U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, Madras, 4th edition, 1968. 16. Berridale Keith, A., A history of Sanskrit literature, Madras, 1973, pp.266-272. 17. Inscriptions of the Western Gangas, Dr.K.V. Ramesh, Delhi. 18. Perunkatai, Ed., Dr. U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, Madras, 4th edition, 1968, Introduction. 19. Ibid. p.640. 20. Ibid. p.870-71. 21. Ibid. p.7. 22. Ibid. p.24-25. 23. Ibid. p.110. 24. Ibid. p.110. 25. Ibid. p.110 26. Ibid, p. 748 27. Ibid, p. 505 28. Ibid. verse p.505. 29. Ibid. verse p.249. 30. Ibid. verse p.775. (to be continued) Posted by jayasree at 12:32 PM

Monday, May 6, 2013


Is Vedic astrology derived from Greek astrology – a rejoinder by R.Ramanathan

{This debate is currently going on among experts in astrology from India and abroad. The foreigners claim that "Rashi" and planets were originally Greek innovations which Vedic astrology borrowed from them. They also say that it is not right to call astrology as we practice in our country as Vedic astrology. Mr Ramanathan who used to contribute fine articles on Vedic yajnas had sent a rejoinder to my article which is reproduced below.}
By profession I am a software Engineer. I will be rambling a bit before I get on to the core topic as stated in the heading. I want to digress a lot because many people are not aware of the context involved in the traditional way of studying the Vedas. As always, credit for any valuable information found in this article is due to the great Brahmavaadins who taught me right from my Upanayana till now. Any inaccuracies or wrong information is due to my deficient understanding and sheer incompetence.

I have good contacts with a lot of south Indian traditional Vedic scholars (of all 4 vedas) who have finished their Vedic studies upto either Krama, jata or Ghanantha along with the 6 Angas. They live a complete Vedic life along with the necessary aachara and rites in remote villages. I have been to many Shrauta rituals conducted by such great people. Also I have seen many real sanyasis from among them who have really practiced the principles advocated in the Upanishads, a few of them who really wander without staying in one place. It is not with a view to boast my qualifications or experiences that I am writing this big an introduction.

Unlike many professors who may have fancy Phd's in Indology, from big institutes who are part of the mail group discussions, I have learnt the Vedas and the related subjects to a very small extent from people who live and practice it in daily life, what they learn. I consider that the real qualification, than studying for a Phd in Indology. I was introduced to this article and the mail group discussion by Mrs Jayasree. I was pained to see the type of discussions happening on these groups/forums. I thought that the period of colonial Indologists with vested interests has come to an end but I still see those people along with their shishyas alive and kicking. As a traditional adhyayi I feel a responsibility to reply to all these arguments as I feel it insults this great dharma followed for generations.

Of course I do not believe comparative philology to be an exact science. So I am not going to reply using all these "so called scientific" stuff. I have several reservations on the subject of philology and its several fallacies but that is the subject of probably another article. I am going to give a practical response, culled from the everyday lives of persons who have dedicated their entire lives for preservation of Vedas.

It is a pity that in all these discussions none of these foreign professors care to refer to these traditional scholars and get their views. They refer to people like Paul Deussen, Max Weber etc. as experts! As I said earlier there are people whom I know practicing, "Shravana Manana and Nidhidhyasana" in their daily life and Deussen is considered an expert in the Upanishads!!!. After all consider the pain these traditional scholars have undergone to preserve them. About no less than 50-70 years ago, to preserve tonal purity of the Vedas these people have travelled on foot alone for many miles through dangerous forests, crossing many wild rivers, risking bandit's en-route etc. to meet scholars from neighboring villages to get the doubts they had, clarified. They painstakingly transmitted it to the next generation with utmost care. When they recognized any lapses on their part they did japa of 1000 Gayathris as expiation for the lapse. They perform the Agni Hotra without fail. I personally know such people now who are in their late 70s and 80s. This is just to emphasize the care and pain tradition has taken to ensure proper transmission. But yet the western scholars care not for these people. After all if these people did not exist, then I bet there would be no "Chairs of sanskrit/Indologoy" in their fancy universties. So literally it is because of these people, that foreign professors get their bread & butter, and I cannot but roll in laughter to think that these university professors pass value judgments on the traditional scholars and tell them what's right and wrong in the Vedas

Mind that sufficient variations in texts have been accounted for, in terms of various shakas sutras etc. For example in the term Taittriya denotes around 86 shaakas of which the Maitrayini, Kapishtala, Katha, Ballaveya, Oukhya shaka etc. are a few examples. Also there is the classification of the shukla/Krishna Yajuses. It is the same with other Vedas too. Also within the Taittriya shaaka there are innumerable numbers of sutras like Bodhayana, Apastamba, HiranyaKeshin etc. So though the Veda is same the application in rituals can differ and is considered acceptable shishtaachara. There are innumerable other differences which are too large to be mentioned in this article. But the idea is that as long as there are traditional "Aarsheya(From Rishis)" source of authorities, even though a particular concept may not be explicitly mentioned in any of the Veda, it is considered as authoritative and is followed as part of Vaidika aachara.

Another point debated is the accents of Vedic texts. I recently came across some useless project called the "Restoration of Rig Veda", where all the mantras are made to fit Panini's rules. My teacher was approached for this and obviously he did not support it, as mentioned by Mrs Jayasree in one of her mails. It must be understood that Panini tried to explain the existing system in the Vedas. He did not try to create a new system and "Correct" the misfits calling them corrupted text and has left it to the decisions of the Rig Vedins like Shakalya, Ashvalayana etc as to how to pronounce it. Such exceptions in each shakha are dealt with in the Praatishakya texts of each Veda. Panini never claims to have explained all the Vedas nor I bet he would desire so. Also I see some of these Indologists claim that some of the texts got their accents sometime in the 19th century and so on. What a laughable idea. As I said earlier these Vedic scholars dedicate their entire lives to preserve such texts. They study the angas to preserve each shaka as much as is humanly possible. They are loath to even slightest changes in accents and pronunciation. So it is absurd to say that some portions got their accents in the 19th century. This is vintage, colonial, Indological imperialism to the core. Especially the Aranyaka and the Upanishads are usually unaccented in cases like the Rig Veda. So can we consider the Aiteraya Brahmana and the Upanishad as not part of the Vedas? But Taittriya shaakaha has all the 3 swaras till the last. But the Taittriya Upanishad and the Aranyakas have accents that differ from those in the samhita but there is a book called the Aranyaka shiksha that explains these differences and neither the author nor the date is known. I bet no western Indologist knows it. Also the Ishavasya Upanishad that is part of the Shukla Yajus samhita is fully accented. But whereas the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad in the Shatapath brahmana has only 2 accents (The Udatta and the Anudatta alone).So just because a particular text is unaccented/differently accented does not mean it is not recognized part of the Veda. As a practical example I wish to suggest that when the Samidheni Rigs(Riks chanted during addition of kindling sticks called samidh to the fire, during Shrauta sacrifices) are chanted they are chanted in Eka shruti (Monotonically) and not with the normal accents with which they are usually chanted on other occasions. So the western Indologists would do well to come to India and interact with these scholars before jumping to hasty conclusions. The problem is that for these Indologists the Vedas are just a matter of academic pursuit, whereas for these scholars it is a matter of heart and life itself and they take it very seriously. So believe me they have done a pretty good job of preserving the Vedas.

We will now deal with the core topic as mentioned in the heading. As told earlier I am not going to use philology or other gymnastics to support my arguments. I would be using practical examples in my arguments. As an example consider the Aupasana. It involves maintenance of a Grihya fire till death by the couple. It is the first basic rite enjoined upon a newly wedded couple. Nowhere in the entire Taittriya Samhita has the word "Aupasana" occurred, though the word "Paaka yajna" occurs. But it is only using the Aupasana fire to start with; the Shrauta ritual of "Agnyaadhana" is performed. In this ritual, the aupasana fire is divided into the 3 Shrauta fires (Gaarhapatya, Aahavaniya and the Anvaaharya fire). It is in these fires that all the other grand shrauta yajnas are done. So the source for the first basic shrauta ritual, the Agnyaadhana, is the "Aupasana" agni, which has never been mentioned in the Samhita. So it follows as per these western indologists that if a word does not occur in the Veda then the concept is either borrowed or non-existent. Thus the Shrauta rituals become invalid since the word "Aupasana" never occurred once in the samhita. What patent absurdity is this!!!. The entire life of a Grihasta and the associated dharma's become invalid. In fact the performances of all the basic samskaras like Choula, Upanayana, shraddha, and even last rites become invalid!!!. Would be ok to consider this as Non-Vaidika?.

Only the Grihya sutras (For example Apastamba grihya sutra) explain the performance of the Aupasana and other grihya rituals like the Aagrahayani sthalipaaka, the pinda pitru yajna, the Ashtaka shraddha etc, in detail. So the authority is mainly based on the grihya sutras.

Similarly even the sandhya rite (Event the word) is not mentioned in the Rig Veda Samhita even once. It is explained only in the Mahanarayana Upanishad, a text according to western Indologists is of dubious antiquity. The entire set of Sandhya mantras are taken from this text for all the Vedas. So since the word Sandhya did not occur in the RV and the Sama Veda, does it follow that the concept is foreign to them and they need not do it? So it can be seen that the basic rites required for a Vedic life do not find direct mention in the Vedas. The source for all these texts is the Kalpa or Dharma shastras written by Rishis and not the Vedic texts.

It follows that many astrology texts like the Brihat jataka, Parashara hora etc and many texts like the Ramayana and the Puranas are texts composed by Vedic Rishis. Why should people following them to practice astrology be not termed "Vedanga Jyothishyas"?. There are texts in the Vedas like "Dwadaasha Maasa Samvatsaraha". It means "The year has 12 months". So the concept of 12 units in one year is not alien to the vedas. It is just that the grouping of the nakshatras into a raashi gana is of dispute. If it has been coded by Vedic rishis like Parashara etc, it can be considered "Arsheya" and be followed as shishtaachara. The taittriya Upanishad says "When in doubt on dharma please consult brahmanas well versed in the Vedas, impartial and having a dharmic bent of mind, and take their word as the word of the Vedas". So it is in this sense that the word "Raashi" need not be considered "Avaidik" and of Greek origin. Thus texts that deal with predictive astrology composed by Vedic rishis are also considered very much part of "Vedangal Jyothisha", by the force of Shishtaachara alone.

I appeal to every person interested in this ancient Vedic culture of Bharatavarsha and its preservation to just trash the arguments of these Western Indologists. They do not live and follow the precepts contained in them. To them it is just bread and butter and they do not have an inkling of what they talk. Also they have many social/governmental pressures to conform to, awards/perks to win etc. Same is the case with our own Indologists who are devoted shishyas of Karl Marx, Witzel etc. So for any doubts you have on the Veda, please consult, these traditional scholars if you can find them. Probably they cannot talk in English and do not know fanciful subjects like "Philology" and cannot browse the net. But they are our only living examples of this culture and it is proper to learn only from them. Otherwise all these wild speculations made by these "Indologists" are like speculations made by paleontologists after they find Dinosaur bones. And finally if we accept the views of these Indologists, then we are like people, though having a living species of animals to study, only confine ourselves to study the bones of these animals got from a dig and trying to understand them!!!.

1 comment:

Rupak Panigrahysaid...
Hi Friend, You are very true.
Sometimes I get tears in my eyes to hear such things about Vedas and how they are mishandled. Its not just harmful for india but also for the whole world.

I request all to read the book "Searching for Vedic India" by Devamrita Swami.

Anyways I dont think its so important to convince these biased indologists regarding the purity and divine origin of Vedas. Basically those deluded by illusion; Vedas will not be revealed to them. They are a matter of heart and of revelation. Not of some word jugglery.

You are true about the South Indian brahmins who sacrifice their entire lives for perservation of Vedas. Probably if these indologists visit and interact with these experts they may get some insight. But anyways I feel its not so important.

Its we who have to preserve. We need our politicians to be educated in Vedas or at least guided by people who are teachers of Vedas which is the ideal system. We need our teachers to understand Vedas , at least a toplevel understanding. So if majority of Indians understand the divinity of Vedas, then almost the purpose is served.

I agree that this is a real big task and it needs some real geniuses. We can contribute to this by whatever small way we can for the restoring the respect for Vedas in hearts of indians which was strategically destroyed by british employed biased indologists.
Yavana Gold Coin in India, also from Wikipedia

15 comments:

  1. Dear Mr Dale,

    Your note on Perseus - Gorgon makes me give some additional information that further strengthens your point. For example the Greek art that you have shown above has the Triangulum constellations. The identification of this as a galaxy happened only in 1654 by the Italian astronomer, Giovanni Battista Hodierna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulum_Galaxy).

    But its presence in the Greek art shows that this shaped was recognized by the Greeks. The specialty of this triangle is that this is the symbol of Kali!

    The google search page for Kali yantra is given below. Click this to see how triangle is symbolized by Kali and how it forms the basis of all yantras, because Kali personifies Sakthi (Power/ cosmic power)

    https://www.google.co.in/search?q=kali+yantra&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=5VCcUc7RCouFrAfW44HACA&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=613

    That the Greek myth creators have recognized this shape in the region where Perseus holds the head of Gorgon can not be missed for its connection to Kali.

    The Triangular Galaxy has two triangles, shown as a minor or obscure triangle close to the more distinct triangle in the Greek art. This also has a symbolism in Kali/ Sakthi - Shiva union. The triangle with its tip pointing to the south signifies Kali or Sakthi - which is what the shape of India, south India and Tamillands are as I showed in Part 4.If the triangle points to the north, it signifies Shiva. The super imposition of these two triangles one over the other signifies Shiva - Sakthi union which is once again the base design for most of the Yantras of the Hindu fold.

    Check this link for the pics Shiva- sakthi yantra.

    https://www.google.co.in/search?q=shiva+-+shakti&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KFGcUYSFIIvJrQfUyICABw&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=613#hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=shiva-+sakthi+yantra&oq=shiva-+sakthi+yantra&gs_l=img.3...13934.20984.0.21303.24.24.0.0.0.0.259.1747.17j4j3.24.0...0.0...1c.1.14.img.pU6vvnoVJHM&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.bmk&fp=a643b244097cf09b&biw=1366&bih=613

    In the Greek art, only Kali or Sakthi is depicted and therefore single triangle has been portrayed predominantly. Some one who had known the association of this triangle and Kali must have added these symbolisms in a real life story of Andromeda and Perseus to lend them a demi-god status. The relative obscurity lent to the other triangle shows that it was Kali all along and Shiva is obscure.

    This happens when Kali gains an upper hand over Shiva. The famous dance of Nataraja is about a duel between Kali and Shiva in which Shiva wins. In Chidambaram, where the famous Nataraja temple is situated, the original story is that it was ruled by Kali. It was not the original shrine of Nataraja. The idol of Nataraja that we find in this temple was actually a family idol / deity of 3000 Brahmins whose beginnings go to pre-historic times when they escaped from a fire and a deluge and landed there.

    Any forest track in India would have Kali as a ruling deity. This place (Chidambaram) also was a forest in the olden times and was ruled by Kali. When Nataraja was brought there, a duel happened between him and Kali on who was superior and who owned that place. Nataraja won her in the dance - duel and claimed ownership of that region. Even today an olden Kali temple is there which is recognized as the original deity of Chidambaram, where Nara- bali (human sacrifice where devotees had cut off their head as a sacrifice) had happened in the past. Today, it is replaced by Kumkuma archanai (red-saffron powder sprinkled on the deity).

    (continued)

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  2. I will give you more information on Kali's connection with death. There are two inscriptions available from Cholan and Cheran Perumal king's time on how Kali must be appeased with blood whenever people wanted to clear a forest track to build human habitation. The rationale given in those inscriptions is that a forest is a place of murder where animals are killed by other animals. Their spirits would be roaming in the forest and attack anyone who is entering the regions where they were killed. (There is a reference to it in the 2nd century AD Tamil Epic, Silappadhikaram).

    The consecration of Kali in the forest would attract these spirits and keep them under her control. Anyone praying to Kali would be protected from being attacked by these spirits. If such forest tracks are cleared for human living, the impact of the spirits would haunt the people coming to live there. Therefore (so say the inscriptions) sacrifice of goats or cocks are made on specific occasions to appease Kali and to ward of effect from spirits. The temples (mostly of Kali) where animal sacrifice happens even today in Tamil nadu are in the regions which were once forest lands but cleared for habitation.

    ************

    On triangles, there is another symbolism which is used in death related Vedic ceremonies. The triangle with its tip facing the west will attract the departed soul and get locked within that triangle. The three geometric designs (circle, triangle and square) shown in Papyrus Anana written in 1320 BC, that James Churchward had shown are actually the designs that attract Viswedevas, departed father and the previous 3 generation ancestors of the departed father - that is done on the 11th day ceremony called "sa-pindee karana" in Vedic life. I have written an article in Tamil
    http://thamizhan-thiravidana.blogspot.in/2012/10/110_9310.html
    (I don't know whether it can be google translated).

    I intend to write it in English to Mu.com. I will send a copy to you when I write that.


    regards,
    Jayasree

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  3. Further follow-up on Cetus:-

    http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.in/2013/05/akokera-or-makara-maybe-there-was.html

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  4. Thank you Jayasree!
    This is all very interesting and I now feel stronger than ever that the story of Perseus is actually an Indian allegorical tale brought to Greece by a Persian man. I do not know what the name of the original story was but the key element that most people recognise is the story of the beautiful princess set out as a sacrifice to the sea monster and then the young hero rerscuing the princess. This story has been retold hundreds of times and just mentioning the plot calls to mind many copies.

    I can well believe it was originally an Indian story but I do not know what original name would have been used for Andromeda ("The one that men like to think about", Andro = men, Media as in meditate)The Greek story had it that the Princess had to be sacrificed owing to the impious speech of her mother, who bragged that her daughter was more beautiful than the deities. Having the queen punished this way (By taking away the daughter that she had been praising) for her impious actions is also a readily recognisable traditional story.

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    Replies
    1. The story of Andromeda and Perseus does not have any parallel in India. As you wrote in the note it looks probable that a person of Persia had taken the idea from India and used it to create mythical and divine powers for himself which helped him to create a dynasty and certain invincibility around his name. His story of rescuing Andromeda and marrying her may be real.

      On human sacrifice to kali, the sacrifice was the nature of cutting one's own head in her presence. The belief is that Kali would bless such a person to become a king. The famous myths of Vikramadhitya, a devotee of Kali has the story of himself offering his head to Kali.

      http://books.google.co.in/books?id=C48OOW--HesC&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=vikramaditya+cut+his+head+at+kali+temple&source=bl&ots=qHxlr2h3jn&sig=N0A_wpOOCgTU1zNpxEt59R0mfyA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OB2eUZm2NMPUrQeBw4GgAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=vikramaditya%20cut%20his%20head%20at%20kali%20temple&f=false

      In living memory or in records no such offer of head by anyone to kali exists. But in Chidambaram Kali temple, there are 2 shrines of Kali, one of which is presently not worshiped by devotees but offered regular pujas by the priests. The temple priests and locals say (by word of mouth for generations) that devotees in times of old, had cut off their head as an offering to this kali. The other shrine of kali is presently open to devotees where Kumkum archana (offer of red saffron powder) is a popular way of worship.

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  6. Nice post!!! Good discussion about astrology.
    __________
    World famous astrologers

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  7. Nice blog !! Astrology is an ancient science which is being performed by astrologer.It is based upon movement of planets and zodiac sign.An astrologer predict the horoscope of a person based on his birth chart in which all details of a person is mentioned.
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    free astrology prediction

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  8. Black magic is also known as kala jadu. Black magic means Abhichara. This is something which is practiced in many ways in different parts on the earth, by attracting the false energies.

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  9. This is certainly true. Black magic is most often performed by people in an attempt to "Get Rich Quick" in one way or another, without the required years of study and preparation. Therefore practitioners are dealing with dangerous forces which they do not understand. Forces which a wise man could reasonably understand and channel useful they unleash chaotically in the hopes that they will get what they want. Unfortunately this can be as damaging to the practitioners as it is to anybody else. And it is always the same because Black Magic is almost invariably the realm of ambitious amateurs instead of skilled and highly trained professionals. Such people are often prone to undertake dangerous and risky behavior in all areas of their life.

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  10. Vashikaran Mantra are unique and very powerful remedies of astrology which are perform by expert panel of astrologer to get solutions of a problems or issues of people by supernatural ways. Black magic is best remedies as compare to traditional remedies.
    ---------------
    http://www.blackmagicvashikaran.com/vashikaran-mantra.html

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  11. You and I are defining "Black" magic differently: do you care to be more specific with that?

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  12. BTW, I DID look at your site, I would just like you to be a little bit more specific for the record in the discussion which is going on HERE.

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  13. Nice post!! you well describe about Vedic astrology.It is an ancient science which is mainly depend on movement of planets and zodiac sign.It tells the future of a person based on his birth details.
    __________
    http://www.freeonlineastrologer.com/Free-vedic-astrology.php

    ReplyDelete

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