Deluge of Atlantis

Deluge of Atlantis
Deluge of Atlantis

Sunday, May 19, 2013

Guest Blogger Jayasree-Is Vedic Astrology Derived from Greece?

This is a continuing discussion at Jayasree's blog and I have been wanting to run it here for some time (I have made some references to some of the matters which came up during the debate on this blog along the way) There were some technical problems with making the transposition from his blog to this one but I think we have them solved now

vedic astrology online, numerology prediction, monthly rashiphal, free matchmaking services, birth chartNon-random-Thoughts

This blog aims at bringing out the past glory of India, Hinduism and its forgotten values and wisdom. This is not copyrighted so as to reach genuine seekers of these information. Its my prayer that only genuine seekers - and not vandals & plagiarists - come to this site.

Saturday, May 4, 2013

Is Vedic astrology derived from Greek astrology -part 1

The following from Mr Deiter Koch caught my attention.

comparing your answer with my mail, it does not seem to have *any* connection.

I will not change anything in my article as long as my following statements are not refuted with valid arguments:
1. There is Greek terminology in Varahamihira and Yavanajataka. (no valid rebuttal has been achieved so far)
2. No rashis appear in pre-Puranic texts. (debate is still in progress)

Babylonians play no role in my article. You are looking at the wrong historical epoch.


I wrote in one of my interactions
// Surprised because none of you - particularly Mr Deiter Koch thought it fit to get his work approved by a Teacher of a Veda patashala whose minimum qualification must be expertise in his own shaka along with the respective shadangas. Instead people are depending on dictionaries written by this or that author and the commentaries written by them.

Surprised because of the thinking that only Sanskrit works can be checked for the 'evidence' that you are looking for. Tamil Sangam texts which were composed before 2000 years convey a lot more. One can not arrive at a conclusion on anything to do with Vedas or Vedic age or any issue of Sanathan Dharma, based only on Sanskrit texts that exist today. Vedas are many and what we have today are only a fraction. To make a judgement from the available little is faulty.//
For which Mr Deiter replied
//On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Dieter Koch <> wrote:
Dear Ms Jayasree,
you say:

<Any research can not be based on semantics alone. Particularity the kind of issue / research that Mr Deiter has taken up must be supported by other branches of science and knowledge. If he wants to rely on only literary source I can quote not less than 4 literary sources from Sangam Tamil to show that rashi division was known to the people much long before the Greeks. But I would show evidence from other branches of knowledge also and write them separately addressed to Mr Deiter.>
It is true, I have not included Tamil literature in my considerations, nor do I understand or read Tamil. Your feedback will be welcome.

Best regards

I decided to write what I know from not only Tamil but other sources that include Indus evidences too. This will go for 5 + articles. I am covering all the oft repeated accusations including the one from Mr Elst on Sankaranthi - and will respond to comments to these articles only after I finish them as I will be concentrating on writing the other parts.

I also wish to introduce a Vedic scholar Mr Ramanathan, a software engineer by profession, who has been doing adhyayanam for years in the traditional way under a competent Guru. He will be writing on the Vedic issues of this topic as a rejoinder to my articles.

Thanks for your response Mr Deiter.
This is going to be pretty long article as I have to clarify a lot of things. Let me start with a long introduction.
It is now known from archaeological researches across the world that wherever people had lived, there they had followed some level of astronomy- astrology – in particular observed the sun's movement and followed some rituals related to that. But no other society in the world except the Indian society had made astrology a part of everyday life. From dawn to next dawn and from birth to death, astrology is mixed with the life of an Indian – irrespective of his caste.
As per the 1901 census, there were 1,23,000 astrologers in India. This census report also noted in the specific context of Orissa that each astrologer served 100 families. This is only twice of the number of families served by a washer man or a barber. The village community consisted of atleast one astrologer who was engaged in astrology as a family tradition. For your information Mr Deiter, these astrologers did not charge a fee but subsisted on what was given as Dakshinai. The same census report says that the astrologer who attended the ceremonial observances of the families for whom he was the astrological consultant, shared the offerings given to the Brahmin (the priest of that occasion) "taking from a quarter to three-eighths of the total amount given" to the Brahmin. Similar account has been written in the Census report of 1891 by Mr Stuart and by James Mill in his book "The History of British India" written in 1871.
Similar village community culture existed 1000 years ago which we deduce from the temple inscriptions of Tamilnadu. The same culture can be traced back further into the Sangam age which goes before the Common Era. The people who lived in the three lands of ancient Tamilnadu (Chera, Chola and Pandya) never had the need to move out of this region. These kings had fought against each other, but never were the people disturbed. The people were mentioned as "Pazham Kudi" or olden tribes who lived in the same place from time immemorial because (the poem says) they were not known to have moved out of their lands. It is because everything they needed was available in their own place and they had no fear of anything including war. (Silappadhikaram – chapter 1- lines 15 to 18). This long duration of existence of people in India, particularly in South India had been made out from the genetic studies too.
The Tamil sources are intact even today which is not so with North Indian sources. It is obviously because North India bore the complete devastative impact of the Muslim invasions. No single temple of the pre-Muslim era exists in North India. I mention the temples because they were the centres of every branch of culture of the Indian society. They also were the sources of inscriptions that reflect the society. However the people had bounced back to their previous life style as is evident from the census reports and also the reports presented by British Collectors to the Governor General of British India in the period between 1783 to 1788.
Dharam Pal's "The Beautiful tree" make specific mention of the rich tradition of astrological knowledge of India. It so happened that the Governor General of Bengal (between 1784-85), John Macpherson himself studied the local culture and sent a report to his former teacher, Adam Ferguson of the University of Edinburgh who were impressed with the state of "politics, laws, philosophies and sciences especially Indian astronomy." In his report this John Macpherson wrote that if the British "procured these works to Europe, astronomy and antiquities and the sciences connected with them would be advanced in a still great proportion" and observed further,
"the history, the poems, the tradition, the very fables of the Hindoos might therefore throw light upon the history of the ancient world and in particular upon the institution of that celebrated people FROM WHOM MOSES RECEIVED HIS LEARNING AND GREECE HER RELIGION AND HER ARTS"
This is the opinion that existed until the 18th century. No European who actually went through the life and culture of Indians never even thought that India borrowed any of these prime subjects or a fraction of that subject knowledge from anywhere in Europe. Particularly concerning astronomy of that day, John Macpherson observed that "Banaras, the centre of all learning" was a place where "very ancient works in astronomy are still extant". This is mentioned in his Memorandum sent to Lord Cornwallis too.

People from outside came and learned in India - earlier in Thakshashila which was more close to Arab and central European people - and in Banaras where people from all over India went for Higher learning. But the local community with its composition of different sections of the society including astrologers remained intact since TIME IMMEMORIAL.

Saturday, May 4, 2013

Is Vedic astrology derived from Greek astrology -part 2

(part 2 - continued from the previous post - part-1)
In that (Tamil) society nothing was done without the advice of the astrologer.
To cite an example, the local poet of the village used to consult the village astrologer on the right time to go the king and the prospects of getting a hefty reward from the king. He says in verse 204 of Pura Nanuru, that if the king (by name Valvil Ori) did not give him the rewards, he would not blame the king, but the blame his "time" and the nimitthas when he started. This king Valvil Ori lived 2000 years ago which can be cross checked from a copper coin found in Karur and now housed in Karur Museum and the inscription found in Pugalur hills. My Tamil article on this can be read here In the absence of Sangam Tamil sources, people would have deduced that this coin was a Roman coin as Roman traders used to frequent this place (Karur) and many Roman coins have been found here. A similar hazard is happening in the current issue on Aries claiming it to be a Greek invention.
Yet another example that I want to quote is that astrologers were consulted even for stealing! The famous Tamil Epic Silappadhikaram of the 2nd century AD, devotes a full chapter on a community of hunters who used to steal the cattle and distribute them to the people in their village including the astrologers. (Silappadhikaram, chapter 12). This type of culture of stealing the cattle was part of ancient culture of the Tamils which is mentioned in the grammar works that in the fringe regions of the country, where the king could not have effective control over protecting his subjects, thieving or stealing cattle was allowed as a dharmic act as that was done to the benefit of the entire community. The highlight is that astrologers were consulted for fixing the fruitful time for stealing!
In the same Silappadhikaram, in the scene where the gold smith was trying to convince the security guards that Kovalan was indeed a thief, he was quoting information from the Shastra for stealing (in Tamil "KaLavu nool") This Shastra is one among the 64 forms of art. This shastra contains information on astrology which a thief must know so that he can choose the right time to steal and escape successfully. In particular he mentioned the basic 8 things of this shastra that the thief (Kovalan) must have mastered and continued to justify them relating to the events. Jyothish related factors in that list are Tantra karana, Nimittha, time factor. (Silappadhikaram -chapter 16, lines 166 -190) Tantra Karana as we know contains knowledge of moon and planets. The timing of stealing requires the knowledge of all the five angas of Panchanga. The best (or worst) kind of stealing or even murder can be carried out without hassle and with success in specific combination of all these 5 factors. The thief as well as others of that time of Silappadhikaram had possessed the knowledge of astrology used in crimes.
In the same period of this incident mentioned in Silappadhikaram there comes another mention of the "Perum GaNi" – The Chief Astrologer who was one among the four members of the Cheran king's advisors. The Kula Guru or Acharya (AsaAn), Perum GaNi (Chief astrologer), Chief Minister and Chief of the Army were accompanying the Cheran king wherever he went or when he was in the Royal court. When the king finalised the decision to go to the Himalayas to gather a suitable stone with which he can carve out the image of Kannagi, (on whose life Silappadhikaram revolves around), it was the chief astrologer's turn to give his bit of advice. There the poet gives some crucial information. The poet was a contemporary of that King and was his own younger brother. So whatever he says is taken as pertaining to that period. He says that Chief astrologer possessed the knowledge of 12 signs and the position of the planets in them in addition to the knowledge of the five.
The verse is as follows:
"ARiru madhiyinum kAruga vadip payinRu
Aindhu kELviyum amainthOn" (Silappadhikaram chapter 26 – lines 25, 26)
ஆறிரு மதியினுங் காருக வடிப் பயின்ற
ஐந்து கேள்வியும்
From the commentary of Adiyaarkku nallaar belonging to the pre- 9th century AD:-

ARiru = 6 X 2 = 12
madhiyinum = the signs where moon moves.
kAruga vadi = kaarugam + adi
KArugam = planets
Adi = foot-steps / movement
payinRu = learnt
Aindhu = five
kELvi = knowledge.
The five knowledge are the Pancha angas of the almanac. Adiyaarkku nallar says that they mean thithi, vara, nakshatra, yOga and karaNa.
He says that the Chief astrologer had the knowledge of the movement of planets in the 12 signs. He also knew the Five angas of Panchanga. The commentator further says that the five-some knowledge could also mean (1) friendly, (2) own, (3) exalted, (4) inimical and (5) debilitated positions of the planets. If the poet had meant this, this is a sufficient proof of the knowledge of signs.
The poet continues to say that the chief astrologer possessing (the above mentioned) knowledge rose up and said "Muzhuththam eengkithu" (Silappadhikaram chapter 26, line 30), meaning "now is the Muhurtha (auspicious time)" so that the king can start immediately. As it is impossible for the king to start in such a short notice, the practice was to do a symbolic shifting. This was done by ceremoniously shifting the Royal Umbrella of the King to another place. This is an age old practice is followed in Tamil nadu even now by shifting a thing that a person is going to carry with him to another place at an auspicious time. This practice was there from time immemorial – as it is found mentioned as a sutra in the Sangam Grammar book of Tholkappiyam (Chapter 2- 69). There are so many sub-classes coming under this category based on the thing that is shifted. It could be the sword, Drum or Umbrella or any object of the paraphernalia of the king. Unless this practice was a common and frequent one, this kind of main class and sub-class division of shifting the things on an auspicious hour would not have found mention in Tholkappiyam. King Karikal Chola of the 1st century CE also did the same thing, according to the 9th century commentator Nacchinarkkiniyar.
Every such practice that Tholkaappiyam has mentioned is not a newly formed one at the time of writing of the Tholkappiyam. Tholkappiyar says in more than 100 places in this book, that he is only repeating what was told by scholars of the previous times or what was practiced in previous times. That is why we see Tholkappiyam as a mirror of ancient Tamil culture. This practice of symbolic shifting of a thing in an auspicious Muhurtha pushes the knowledge and practice of Muhurtha astrology to a far earlier time before the Common Era.
The basic minimum factors that are taken for computation of Muhurtha for such a shift are Tara bala and Chandra bala. The Chandra bala is based on Moon's position in a rashi with reference to the janma rashi of the person. In this context let me point out that the use of the word Madhi (meaning Moon) in the above quoted verse looks strange. There is a more suitable word called "il" for the rashi. "Il" means the house of the planet. (Pingala NigaNdu and Choodamani NigaNdu, the two popular Tamil thesaurus of the 9th century AD ). But the poet had chosen the word Madhi whose popular meaning is 'moon'. The literal meaning of the verse is " The position of planets in the 12 places that moon transits". This reference to Moon seems to be related to the "Chandra bala" factor that the Chief astrologer would take into account in deciding the auspicious muhurtha.
The knowledge of Panchanga also means the existence of the system of Navanayakas. Except the King, every other entity of the Navanayaka is deduced from the entry of the sun into some sign of the zodiac. Infact there are rulers for sankramana / entry of the sun into each and every rashi.
The poem also contains some astrological information, the most important of which is the curse on Madurai of an outbreak of fire on the waning period in the solar month of Gemini (called as Adi in Tamil) when the star Krittika joins Ashtami thithi and Friday. (Silappadhikaram - chapter -23 , 133 to 135). This curse was given in an undated past – prior to the period of Silappadhikaram. This takes the well established knowledge of the astrology to many years or centuries in the period before the Common Era. The thithi- vara- nakshatra- maasa combination of this date is the effect of prevalence of Panchanga at a date before the Common Era. This date continues to be very important throughout Tamilnadu even today. The last Friday of the month of Aadi is known for 'fire-walk' in most of the Amman temples of Tamilnadu – because it was on the last Friday of Adi (Gemini) that Madurai was put on fire by Kannagi. Adi – Kritthikai is a special occasion in the Amman temples. This is the impact of kannagi's episode.
Before explaining further, we have to establish the time period of Silappadhikaram without any doubt. There are 2 historical clues in Silappadhikaram to deduce the time period. One was that a King called Kayavaahu (Kayabahu) of Lanka participated in the consecration ceremony of the Kannagi temple. From Buddhist accounts of Lanka there was a Kayabahu who ruled Lanka in the early part of 2nd century AD.
Another clue is that the King Senguttuvan was a friend of SatakarNis (in Tamil this is written as 'nooRRuvar kannar'). Senguttuvan had to settle score with two kings of the Aryavartha (Kanaka and Vijaya, sons of Balakumara– whose identity is not known from the presently available information) who teased him on his earlier visit to the North when he went with his widowed mother to pay oblations to his late father in the Ganges. At that time he did not take his army with him. He wanted to take revenge on them and utilized the trip to the Himalayas to do that. The Satakarnis provided him with boats to cross the Ganges and he won the war on Kanaka- Vijaya. There is another information towards the end of the story that this king Senguttuvan scored a victory over the 'foul- mouthed YAVANAS' (வன் சொல் யவனர் வளநாடு ஆண்டு) before he reached the Himalayas. (Silappadhikaram, chapter 28 , 141 & 142)
This information is not found in any of the North Indian chronicles. But Silappadhikaram says that he won the Yavanas. Looking at the context that he was accompanied with the Satakarnis, it becomes obvious that the king who helped him was Gautami Putra Satakarni who won over the Yavanas. In his war against the Yavanas, the Cheran king also had fought along with him. Gautami Putra Satakarmni ruled between 78- 102 CE. This puts the time of Silappadhikaram to the end of 1st century.
Silapapdhikaram says that after winning over the Yavanas, the Cheran king reached the Himalayas and procured the stone. This location must be near Amarnath caves as there were similar expeditions by other two Tamil kings (Pandyan and Cholan) to Amarnath whose name is Paruppadam in Tamil. The route to Amarnath passes through Yavana countries in the land of five rivers. The description given in Silappadhikaram fits with the route.
For our topic, the period of Silappadhikaram establishes that the knowledge of 12 signs, the planetary transit, the use of Panchanga and the fixing of Muhurtha were all well established in the 1st century CE itself. The computation of the auspicious time as Muhurtha takes into account the signs, the planetary positions and the lagna. All these were well developed in Tamil nadu even as early as the 1st century AD. (This does not mean that it did not exist in North India. To show the proof, I am saying like this.)
The well established system of the above discussed astrological factors continues even today  after 1800 years without any change in the way we use. This system could not have come into being all of a sudden. It must have been there at least some centuries before that. That takes us to the Sangam Age. In the Sangam Age songs, the name of Aries is mentioned in its local Tamil name  Aadu!
(continued in the next post)
[The Indians referred to the Greeks and Romans as Yavanas, which is essentially the same as the hebrew term, written in most Bibles as Javan. The Indians had enough of a knowledge of geography to be able to name such places as Itlay and Ireland and to place them in their proper latitudes relative to each other. They did this in gazeteers similar to the portolans-but as verbal description only and not as real maps: Donnelly mentioned such things in his 1882 book on Atlantis.I imagine the earlier contacts were initiated from voyagers from Tarsettos (Tarshish) but I do not know the name the Indian records used for them. It is entirely possible the Indians called these wealthy traders by the sea, wealthy in gemstones, valuable metals and other desirable goods, as Nagas [Because the snake was the sign of their nation]or possibly Danavas and Daityas, who had originally dwelt in Atala [Also spelled Patala]: the Atlanteans who were cast down to the bottom of the Ocean by the wrath of Indra.-DD]
The Peoples of the Sea definitely included peoples linked to the name Danu and included the Tuatha deDanaan ("Elves" or Ancestral spirits buried in mounds) in Ireland. This is a matter for another time but the Danu people are obviously the same as the Danavas.
The Danavas, descendants of Danu, are sometimes conflated with the Danai descendants of Danaus.[7]

 See Also

Snake symbol of the Biblical Tribe of Dan: 450px-Dan_tribe metal plate Heichal Shlomo door, Jerusalem, from Wikipedia

No comments:

Post a Comment

This blog does NOT allow anonymous comments. All comments are moderated to filter out abusive and vulgar language and any posts indulging in abusive and insulting language shall be deleted without any further discussion.